Defending Jordan Peterson's Worst Point

A long while back I made myself a Reddit account, mostly to try and hopefully get Jordan Peterson's attention over some stuff I wrote. It was a total long shot though, there was always a slim chance he wouldn't read it, and so that's exactly what happened. Who'd have thought, hey?... But anyway, I then decided to write a new post defending what I perceived to be, to my knowledge, his worst point as it relates to religious belief and morality. I got some interaction out of it, but enough to kinda sour my appreciation for the site. One person made the typical edgy comments on religion, as well as some wild claims that apparently didn't require any evidence whereas I couldn't say two plus two equals four without an entire university of science backing me, another person brought up a ton of random stuff I ain't never heard of and also a little beside the point, and a third person thought Jordan's worst point would have been something else to begin with. No matter how you slice it, it wasn't much of a productive discussion and there weren't many charitable interpretations to go around, but it is what it is. Now the whole thing came to mind, so I figured I might as well bring it on home and rewrite it right here.

And so what was Jordan's worst point? I submit it was when, in a debate with Matt Dillahunty, he was picked up on calling into question the atheism of people who according to him merely claim to be atheists. Jordan therefore seems to have a rather bleak view of atheism, and therefore a true atheist would be someone very different than your average atheist, including Matt himself. Then when asked directly about this by an audience member, Jordan claimed that a true atheist would be someone like Raskolnikov, the main character of Crime and Punishment, a book I rather like but that I interpret differently than Jordan does. Anyway, if you know the book you can guess how the internet saw how the juicy clickbait titles just wrote themselves – Jordan Peterson says that all atheists are axe murderers!... Thing is, it wouldn't be particularly correct to do so, but the bombastic nature of the criticism levied at Jordan was also sorta warranted since his claim was bombastic as well, so it is not expected of atheists to take it on the chin like it ain't no thing. But then again, I do think there might be reasonable interpretation of Jordan's point, which I would phrase it like,

It is potentially rational for the atheist to commit certain immoral acts when he has a good chance of getting away with it, or when the pleasure he receives outweighs the possible risks and the negative consequences.

In a nutshell then, my defense of Jordan's point isn't to say, as it has been said, that atheist equals Raskolnikov. My defense is instead to say that the atheist who wants to commit certain immoral acts has simply fewer barriers stopping him than the religious person. A popular counter to this is the old saying of – As an atheist I commit all the murder I want... which is zero. And sure, that's fine for the particular person, but likewise you have to consider a particular person who does in fact want to commit crimes in a number a little higher than zero. That being the case, what would stop the, let's call him, hardcore atheist? All the things you could pinpoint would be things that still apply for the religious believer, but then again there would be some obvious impediments that simply would not apply to the atheist.

Consider for example any of your trips to the supermarket. You browse around and you decide to pick up a can of soda. If the thought of stealing that soda crosses your mind you'll likely shoot it down just as quickly as it first appeared, and you'd do so for many reasons, such as you are likely being watched by store's security, or you'd trigger the alarm when walking out and upon getting pinched you'd have to deal with the embarrassment and social stigma, or you might also be questioned and even get slapped with a criminal record, or you might even get away with it but you might feel so guilty that the soda ends up tasting pretty sour... And all that trouble for what? A one-dollar soda? None of that is worth it, so you just buy that for a dollar and then you go on your merry way. But what if you were some kind of kleptomaniac who has this strong urge to steal, or you simply derive a whole lot of pleasure from stealing? In that case you might actually prefer to steal the soda, you might reason that buying it isn't worth it or that stealing it is simply worth the risk. The atheist might say that this is an irrational action, that the pleasure is misguided one way or another, and that the soda pop lover has to consider the society in which he lives. But why though? Why should he care when he loves it so damn much? Why should he deny himself this pleasure should the opportunity to enjoy it, with impunity, ever arise?

And to top it off, what if you developed this crazy sleight of hand trick that gave you a flawless success rate every time you attempted to steal a can of soda? In that case you would never get caught, and maybe you'd never feel guilty too. If anything the irrational act would be to spend a single dime on soda for as long as you live. More irrational still would be to spend your entire life with the belief that one day you will die and simply cease to exist, and yet you still somehow care for the impossible legacy you'll leave behind. If life is finite then I'd say a certain modicum of pleasure is very warranted, and the more pleasures you deny yourself the more irrational you'll be. The more accurate overall point then isn't that if you're an atheist you'll automatically be a thief, but it does seem to me that between an atheist tempted to steal and a christian or muslim tempted to steal, the atheist simply has fewer barriers holding him back. That is because between the two, if both can avoid getting caught, and if they can both avoid the feelings of guilt, and if both of them have no particular concerns for the act itself, then the atheist believes that one day he'll die and that's it, nobody will know about it, whereas the christian and the muslim have to contend with the belief that God is watching them and will one day punish them for it.

An immediate objection to this that often comes up is to say that if everyone had this sleight of hand skill then everyone would steal, the supermarkets would lose money, eventually go bankrupt and that would ruin everything for everyone, society would buck a bit, then it would collapse, then we'd all be screwed. That might well be, but the point of the scenario is to think about this impulse in a very individualistic sense, the point is to ask the atheist what would YOU do if YOU could be immoral and totally get away with it? And if you truly wouldn't, how sure are you that it'd be a good idea? And how sure are you that the people around you also wouldn't perform the immoral action?... My point here isn't so much that the action is right or wrong, or that even without feeling guilt the atheist could still rationally see his actions as morally wrong. The point is simply to ask – if you remove at least some of the barriers to immorality then why would you hold yourself back from choosing something that, though perhaps worse for others, is likely way better for you? Why worry about being watched when nobody is watching? Why worry about your legacy when you won't be around to witness any of it?...

At least for me this is a topic I've interiorized from Jordan's lectures, and one that I think a lot of modern atheists resist accepting. It's this pessimistic idea that some people, or indeed most people, or even all people, have somewhere inside them the capacity to be very selfish or just straight-up evil. People are quite naive about this because we find ourselves living in a time and place where most of our immoral actions are prevented in the first place. We have forced accountability towards one another and we decide that a lot of our desires have to be curtailed in favor of something better for society as a whole. In other words, it would take actual kleptomania for a person to risk a ton of social alienation and embarrassment over a single can of soda. On the other hand, situations often arise when you could potentially do something immoral and totally get away with it because no one will ever find out. Surely every single one of us has done or at least has been tempted to do such things, and anyone who'd say otherwise is someone I'd be prepared to call a liar. Because if God isn't watching, and if you're gonna get away with it, and if your consciousness isn't gonna hunt you down, and if you're gonna get pleasure in the end, then, like they say in The Sopranos, you do what you gotta do. The story simply ends sooner for the atheist, and for that reason the scope of his care is lessened. The religious believer, however, has to contend himself with a very lengthy epilogue.

At the end of the day, that thing you wanna do isn't likely to be murder, and in that sense Jordan's comparison is quite explosive. But then again, if you found yourself in Raskolnikov's place would you truly, truly, truly refuse to do what he did due to an overbearing sense of morality? Or would you logic your way into the old lady's house, make a killing, financially I mean, and go on to conclude that you in fact did a great thing? I think the honest answer is a simple I don't know, and the rational answer is a strange maybe. Along those lines I have to confess I'm always extremely weary of modern-day atheists who loudly boast of the immorality of others, especially when combined with their own sense of morality. It's rather like a dangerous version of someone who, when being interviewed for a job, claims to be too much of a perfectionist... And even if I can safely and confidently believe that most people who truly do not believe in God or in the afterlife are nonetheless decent people, I can also confidently believe that someone who proudly boasts of his own morality only when everyone is watching is someone I wouldn't trust alone with the sodas in my fridge.

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